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[chox] Re: Does anyone ever read these posted links? (was: Re: [ox-en] Re: [pox] Please kick and ban Jonathan Walther for racism)

* Ref.: »Re: Does anyone ever read these posted links? (was: Re: [ox-en] Re: [pox] Please kick and ban Jonathan Walther for racism)«
*        Niall Douglas 	(2004-03-02  00:31)

However, if you actually go read the posted links (apart from the
secret stuff on reactorcore), it shows Jonathan in a reasonably
favourable light.

Is uncommented spreading of populist lies or half-lies better
than making them up one-self?!

Well I certainly wouldn't do so with that kind of material, and 
furthermore he digs his own hole by how he's presented them. He has 
brought this on himself but that doesn't make him a nazi.

Well, firstly, I don't want to decide whether he is a nazi or
not; I do, however, care about the "hole" he is "digging". After
all, people cannot / will not be judged by their (honest or
proclaimed) intentions alone, but also by their real position in
the framework of interaction.

... No one knows Wagner for that - it's his contributions to
music which anyone cares about.


I don't know your definition of "no one" and "anyone", yet for me it
seems apparent that "everyone" who has an interest in classical music¹
does know that Wagner himself did have ambitions beyond "easy
listening" or just writing music in general. And that his
"theoretical" views are not un-influenced by his ideological views.
(How could they? ;-)

Obviously if it were a site specialising on the music of Wagner or 
even the music of that period in Germany then you'd go into the 
surrounding background. However, it's a general purpose Wikipedia 
similar to a light encyclopedia.

If I look up Wagner in the Britannica (1993), I see absolutely zero 
mention of any anti-semitism at all or even Hitler for that matter. 
This to me says it all - Wagner's political or religious views are 
unimportant to history.

1. Wagner

Wagner heavily critisized what he called the frivolity of the
opera and his whole oeuvre is his form of putting this criticism
into practice. Now you seem to try to reduce his music to the
role of mere entertainment? 

Wagner had a lot to say *about* music and why it's wrong to treat
music as something we would call "l'art pour l'art". He took an
active interest in the political life of his time and his musical
dramas, his whole concept of aesthetics, were *meant* to play an
active role in the transformation of society (including
politics). This is why I would agree with you if the article had
the title "Richard Wagner's Music from a purely musical
perspective" (whatever that might mean ;-). But if it is supposed
to be an article about him as a composer, as a person, about the
ideas and concepts that drove him and his work, then this would
clearly not be adequate.

This is not yet an answer to whether Hitler should appear in an
article about Wagner. But IMO the reception of a person and his
work should not be ignored in an encyclopedia, because a) it is
part of general knowledge and b) does hardly fit anywhere else.
And, after all, it is the (history of) perception that makes him
worth appearing there at all (in comparison with Joe Bloggs, for

2. Wikipedia vs. Britanica

I don't think that imitating an existing work is the goal of


[¹ -- as for myself, I would *only* include him for his historic
importance, because I find his musical drama mostly stupifying
and boring (-- which is why I decided two months ago, not to go
to a Wagner-opera again ;-).]


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