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[chox] Re: Does anyone ever read these posted links? (was: Re: [ox-en] Re: [pox] Please kick and ban Jonathan Walther for racism)

On 2 Mar 2004 at 11:39, Casimir Purzelbaum wrote:

It wouldn't let me post to chat <at> oekonux last time, so better
hope this time. I've not subscribed because most of the posts are in
German according to the archives.

Is uncommented spreading of populist lies or half-lies better
than making them up one-self?!

Well I certainly wouldn't do so with that kind of material, and
furthermore he digs his own hole by how he's presented them. He has
brought this on himself but that doesn't make him a nazi.

Well, firstly, I don't want to decide whether he is a nazi or
not; I do, however, care about the "hole" he is "digging". After
all, people cannot / will not be judged by their (honest or
proclaimed) intentions alone, but also by their real position in
the framework of interaction.

I wasn't basing anything on what he himself has claimed. In fact, me,
him and three others have been conversing off list since the
beginning and despite me deliberately raising points a nazi would
feel obliged to challenge, he has not risen to the bait. Of course he
may realise I was doing this.

I've also conducted an extensive review of everything google returns
when searching for his name. In my opinion, he is a right wing
nationalist which I think he himself would agree with. But I don't
see any evidence of the racial superiority complex typical of the
Nazi mindset as I have experienced it.

If I look up Wagner in the Britannica (1993), I see absolutely zero
mention of any anti-semitism at all or even Hitler for that matter.
This to me says it all - Wagner's political or religious views are
unimportant to history.
Wagner had a lot to say *about* music and why it's wrong to treat
music as something we would call "l'art pour l'art". He took an active
interest in the political life of his time and his musical dramas, his
whole concept of aesthetics, were *meant* to play an active role in
the transformation of society (including politics). This is why I
would agree with you if the article had the title "Richard Wagner's
Music from a purely musical perspective" (whatever that might mean
;-). But if it is supposed to be an article about him as a composer,
as a person, about the ideas and concepts that drove him and his work,
then this would clearly not be adequate.

This is not yet an answer to whether Hitler should appear in an
article about Wagner. But IMO the reception of a person and his
work should not be ignored in an encyclopedia, because a) it is
part of general knowledge and b) does hardly fit anywhere else.
And, after all, it is the (history of) perception that makes him
worth appearing there at all (in comparison with Joe Bloggs, for

Ok, if the entry for Wagner were twenty pages long, then we should
have a paragraph on his anti-semitism. But let's face the truth here -
 a very substantial minority of Europeans were also anti-semites at
that time, so why are we singling out this particular aspect of
Wagner? Why the hell is this one single thing so very important when
to my knowledge (and the Britannica's), it had near-zero effect on
either his world, the world thereafter or anything who had anything
to do with him? (I think it safe to say Hitler's anti-semitism would
have been unaffected by Wagner's).

How *we* view historical figures it often at odds with how their
contempories viewed them. And I know it's hard on our egos, but it's
how their contempories saw them is what counts.

2. Wikipedia vs. Britanica

I don't think that imitating an existing work is the goal of

Not necessarily. But I think it foolish for anyone to ignore such a
formerly respected work as the Britannica whose quality was
recognised as high. I should add that Wagner's Britannica entry spans
a full page which is relatively long comparatively.

[¹ -- as for myself, I would *only* include him for his historic
importance, because I find his musical drama mostly stupifying
and boring (-- which is why I decided two months ago, not to go
to a Wagner-opera again ;-).]

I wouldn't attend the opera. But I do like Wagner's music and it has
to be said, flight of the valkires (spelt totally wrong) is the
perfect accompanying tune for war scenes in movies! :)



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