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* Ref.: »[chox] Re: Does anyone ever read these posted links? (was: Re: [ox-en] Re: [pox] Please kick and ban Jonathan Walther for racism)« * Niall Douglas (2004-03-03 03:46) Hi Niall, <snip> I'm snipping the parts about J. because I do respect what you said and what you did to come to this conclusion ;-) which does not necessarily mean that I agree... ;-) </snip> <snip contents="Wagner-Discussion-History" />
Ok, if the entry for Wagner were twenty pages long, then we should have a paragraph on his anti-semitism. But let's face the truth here - a very substantial minority of Europeans were also anti-semites at that time, so why are we singling out this particular aspect of Wagner?
Well, that anti-semitism was an almost common view in those times is an important thing to realize, that's why I do not see it as 'singling something out', when this is reflected also in connection with the lives of outstanding figures of the time. Very much like the way almost all intellectuals where enthusiastic about World War 1, things that tend to be forgot and to distort our understanding of the time and its people.
Why the hell is this one single thing so very important when to my knowledge (and the Britannica's), it had near-zero effect on either his world, the world thereafter or anything who had anything to do with him? (I think it safe to say Hitler's anti-semitism would have been unaffected by Wagner's).
Yes and no. As you said yourself: his views where not some personal weirdness or peculiarity. Which is why I do see a connection to later times. Would think Hitler would have invented anti-semitism, had it not been sewn and grown before his time? Wagner is only one representative of this ideology, but a very prominent one. And the ideology certainly did have an effect on history.
How *we* view historical figures it often at odds with how their contempories viewed them. And I know it's hard on our egos, but it's how their contempories saw them is what counts.
Well, "how their contemporaries saw them" is what counts for *them* ;-) *We* cannot go back there. (May it sometimes be unfortunate or not ;-) And... if the contemporaries views where the decisive criterion, we would read hardly anything about e.g. J.S.Bach, and would have to read a lot of stuff about people, in whom most of "us" are not that interested ;-)
2. Wikipedia vs. Britanica I don't think that imitating an existing work is the goal of wikipedia.Not necessarily. But I think it foolish for anyone to ignore such a formerly respected work as the Britannica whose quality was recognised as high.
Agreed. Going *further* should be allowed, though ;-) All intellectual works, even encyclopedias are ideologically biased, that's what makes the different entries on the same subject interesting.
[¹ -- as for myself, I would *only* include him for his historic importance, because I find his musical drama mostly stupifying and boring (-- which is why I decided two months ago, not to go to a Wagner-opera again ;-).]I wouldn't attend the opera. But I do like Wagner's music and it has to be said, flight of the valkires (spelt totally wrong) is the perfect accompanying tune for war scenes in movies! :)
:-) I see, you know what I mean :-) Only, we don't agree with each other ;-) Cheers, Casi. -- Taste must be disputed. Hanns Eisler. _______________________ http://www.oekonux.de/
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